Curse

the savage nornbear · Aug 31, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Will [[flurry]'s decrease in damage affect the bonus damage from skills, or only the base damage from my daggers? I'm sure this has been answered before, but I don't feel like searching. Thanks.

snaek · Aug 31, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

base dmg

it is important to note that while it reduces dmg
it increases overall dps

also, it helps to read wiki

comin from teh very page u link'd in op...
"Very useful for Assassins, as most of their damage comes from attack skill bonus damage, which isn't reduced by Flurry."

the savage nornbear · Aug 31, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Lulz. Thanks, I've never played a sin before, or much warrior actually. Thanks for the quick response.

Luminarus · Sep 01, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Only problem is that it can be costly to maintain, 5 energy every 5 seconds. + whatever attack skills you are using. Coz of this (imo) flail, or tiger stance is usually better. Tiger stance for spikes, flail for moebius pressure builds.

DarkNecrid · Sep 01, 2008, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Only problem is that it can be costly to maintain, 5 energy every 5 seconds. + whatever attack skills you are using. Coz of this (imo) flail, or tiger stance is usually better. Tiger stance for spikes, flail for moebius pressure builds.

Let's assume you have 12 DM and 12 CS, and not factoring in double strikes.

In 5 seconds, you will (again, no double strikes) attack every 0.89 seconds. That is 5.6 attacks. Which is 5 attacks.

12 CS gives you +12% chance to crit. 12 DM gives you an approx +19.2% chance to crit.

So theoretically, assuming just DM & CS, you have a 31.2% chance to crit (since CS&DM are added together, not multiplied).

5 * .31 = 1.55

So on average you'll gain at least 2 energy, to a max of 10 during Flurry with 12 CS, 12 DM, no other skills except Flurry and no double strikes.

So let's make this more reliable, and take double strikes into account. A 12 DM gives you a 26% chance to double strike. (24% from DM + 2% base) On average, this will make your 5 attacks, 6 (one attack will on average double strike at the least).

If you double strike once (ie: use a dual attack.), on average you will crit twice out of your 6 attacks, which means you'll gain 4-12 energy.

Take [Critical Eye], and that becomes 5-13 energy.

Factor in natural e-regen during Flurry, and you'll have enough energy to keep it going forever and still attack (Zealous weapon if you do get low (bad luck)) at just 12 Crit Strike, and 12 Dagger Mastery. And I didn't even factor in a single +crit skill, or Locust's Fury, or anything. So with just 12 crit strikes, and 12 dagger mastery + flurry + natural e-regen + (optional) Crit Eye (it's optional cause natural e-regen will keep your energy going if you get 1 double strike & 2 crits.)) you can keep Flurry going forever + still have energy to attack (because again, this is on average, you will easily have attacks where you double strike all 5 times and crit like 5 times for 10+1 energy, or more.))

I didn't even factor in the de facto standard 13 Critical Strikes which gives you even more energy, or like I said, the usual +crit skill, Critical Eye into the entire equation, skills like [Critical Strike], Zealous Weapons, nor did I give you the math on e-regen during the entire thing, but it is completely possible to keep Flurry up forever + attack all you want with attack skills, with no drawback (you lose a whole 4 damage off your damage range with daggers, oh no.) compared to the 2 IAS's you mentioned.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Sep 01, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Let's assume you have 12 DM and 12 CS, and not factoring in double strikes.

In 5 seconds, you will (again, no double strikes) attack every 0.89 seconds. That is 5.6 attacks. Which is 5 attacks.

12 CS gives you +12% chance to crit. 12 DM gives you an approx +19.2% chance to crit.

So theoretically, assuming just DM & CS, you have a 31.2% chance to crit (since CS&DM are added together, not multiplied).

5 * .31 = 1.55

So on average you'll gain at least 2 energy, to a max of 10 during Flurry with 12 CS, 12 DM, no other skills except Flurry and no double strikes.

So let's make this more reliable, and take double strikes into account. A 12 DM gives you a 26% chance to double strike. (24% from DM + 2% base) On average, this will make your 5 attacks, 6 (one attack will on average double strike at the least).

If you double strike once (ie: use a dual attack.), on average you will crit twice out of your 6 attacks, which means you'll gain 4-12 energy.

Take [Critical Eye], and that becomes 5-13 energy.

Factor in natural e-regen during Flurry, and you'll have enough energy to keep it going forever and still attack (Zealous weapon if you do get low (bad luck)) at just 12 Crit Strike, and 12 Dagger Mastery. And I didn't even factor in a single +crit skill, or Locust's Fury, or anything. So with just 12 crit strikes, and 12 dagger mastery + flurry + natural e-regen + (optional) Crit Eye (it's optional cause natural e-regen will keep your energy going if you get 1 double strike & 2 crits.)) you can keep Flurry going forever + still have energy to attack (because again, this is on average, you will easily have attacks where you double strike all 5 times and crit like 5 times for 10+1 energy, or more.))

I didn't even factor in the de facto standard 13 Critical Strikes which gives you even more energy, or like I said, the usual +crit skill, Critical Eye into the entire equation, skills like [Critical Strike], Zealous Weapons, nor did I give you the math on e-regen during the entire thing, but it is completely possible to keep Flurry up forever + attack all you want with attack skills, with no drawback (you lose a whole 4 damage off your damage range with daggers, oh no.) compared to the 2 IAS's you mentioned.

Spamming Flare after a while begins to get costly. His point wasn't that you can't keep it up, but rather that 5 energy every 5 seconds becomes a lot of energy if you're maintaining it. Especially when compared to to things like [[Tiger Stance] and [[Flail].

zelgadissan · Sep 01, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I'm gonna side with Necrid on this one. [[Flurry] is a permanent IAS that has a very small cost due to Critical Strikes. [[Tiger Stance] lasts 4 seconds, ends on a single block, and recharges for 20....ugh. [[Flail] is adrenaline based which is good, and can cheaply be maintained in a fight - but that means you have to be fighting for a couple seconds before the IAS can kick in. Flurry can be thrown up as you start the attack.

I'm going to assume that this is PvP land since there's not even a hint of [[Critical Agility] in the discussion. If so, I'd say Flurry > Flail >>>>>>>> Tiger Stance.

DarkNecrid · Sep 01, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Lipgloss is Cool

Spamming Flare after a while begins to get costly. His point wasn't that you can't keep it up, but rather that 5 energy every 5 seconds becomes a lot of energy if you're maintaining it. Especially when compared to to things like [[Tiger Stance] and [[Flail].

I'm pretty sure Elementalists don't have a primary ability that refills nearly (or does, depending on attributes & skills & equipment) 1/4th their energy bar by simply attacking either or more with double critical strikes, either.

It doesn't matter if its a "lot of energy", if you can easily make up the costs and more in its duration.

Flurry is better than Tiger Stance and Flail above and beyond. Flurry can easily be kept up indefinitely by an Assassin and you don't have to take a cancel stance for it either since it has no real drawback for you like you should for Flail (unless if you enjoy slowing down your team idk)

snaek · Sep 01, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

[flurry] is teh best perma-ias for pressure builds, i.e. [moebius strike]

[flail] is teh best spike-ias for kd builds, i.e. [backbreaker] or [trampling ox]

[tiger stance] is teh best spike-ias for non-kd builds, i.e. everything else

so it really depends on ur attack chain

when it doubt, bring [flurry]
but if u have no clue which ias is best for ur attack chain...then ur attack chain prolly sux anyways...

Bobby2 · Sep 01, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

lol @ bar compression

[whirling charge]

snaek · Sep 02, 2008, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

lol @ bar compression

[whirling charge]

that isnt really bar compression
it requires an enchant
it costs a lot of energy
it requires at least 6pts in wind (so no 13crit to get +3en)

war ias only cost 5en and require no pts to spec

i'd really only use it for [aura of displacement], [golden skull strike], [grenth's grasp], [way of the empty palm], etc (when the attack chain involves an enchant)

btw...[onslaught] is jus a horrible skill now

Bobby2 · Sep 02, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

that isnt really bar compression
it requires an enchant
it costs a lot of energy
it requires at least 6pts in wind (so no 13crit to get +3en)

Regardless, it's a 2-in-1 skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

war ias only cost 5en and require no pts to spec

Require? lol. We can't. Same with [[Lightning Reflexes], btw - if only us Sins could up their durations

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i'd really only use it for [aura of displacement], [golden skull strike], [grenth's grasp], [way of the empty palm], etc (when the attack chain involves an enchant)

lolthx4 teh many examples (why bring up WotEP anyway?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

btw...[onslaught] is jus a horrible skill now

or this?

snaek · Sep 02, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Regardless, it's a 2-in-1 skill.

Require? lol. We can't. Same with [[Lightning Reflexes], btw - if only us Sins could up their durations

or this?

2-in-1 is misleading when u have to try hard to make teh ias work in a build
only select builds cater to [whirling charge]

1 of teh war ias' can compliment -any- sin attack chain

[lightning reflexes] is horrible for a sin
even if i could invest pts in it, i prolly wouldnt take it

as a sin, u shouldnt think bout increasing teh duration of ur ias
u should think bout shortening teh duration of ur spike while maximizing dmg to fit in the small time-frame of ur ias

and [onslaught] was a random off-topic thought
it compreses ur bar even moreso than [whirling charge]!!!!!!

Bobby2 · Sep 02, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

2-in-1 is misleading when u have to try hard to make teh ias work in a build
only select builds cater to [whirling charge]

1 of teh war ias' can compliment -any- sin attack chain

Yeah, A/D chains. Just like War IAS's only work on A/W's. Rite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

[lightning reflexes] is horrible for a sin
even if i could invest pts in it, i prolly wouldnt take it

I know several good Assassins who would disagree with this. Your spike being relatively safe from DShots/KD Wars etc? Yes plz. Bit too expensive for some, but hey, it's not like there are no +e attacks to compensate... goes for Whirling as well. And Flurry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

as a sin, u shouldnt think bout increasing teh duration of ur ias
u should think bout shortening teh duration of ur spike while maximizing dmg to fit in the small time-frame of ur ias

lolwut? Longer IAS = more damage, rite?

One could run 14Dagger 8Crit for a pretty standard Sin chain and still have a whopping [whirling [email protected]]

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

and [onslaught] was a random off-topic thought
it compreses ur bar even moreso than [whirling charge]!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

only select builds cater to [whirling charge]

lol